Posted by Rik on 07/13/06 20:55

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Rik wrote:
>
>> However, if I take on project, the client usually wants a certain
>> layout, which I have to match as much as possible in standard
>> browsers.
>
> First of all, let's be clear that this has become a subthread about
> generalities, and not specifically about "list-style-type IE6".

It's way off topic indeed.

>> So that's what I'll try. Not meaning pixel-perfect, but as near as
>> possible.
>
> That's what worries me. In so many pages I meet on the world-wild
> web, I see bucket-loads of javascript that's trying desperately to
> force exactly the same visual result no matter what the user may need.
> As often as not, disabling JS results in a better-behaved page, aside
> from all that extra JS clutter that was downloaded from the server and
> then not used. In a minority of cases, the author has sabotaged this
> flexibility, and when JS is disabled they'll do a NOSCRIPT that tells
> the user that the page *needs* javascript, despite the fact that it
> really doesn't. It's all so unnecessary and pointless.

It is, and IMO javascript should never be used for styling, a page has to
look the same with & without. Javascript is nice for some shortcuts that
would otherwise require a submit/trip to the server and back. And that's all
I use it for. It's debatable, but I'm very satisfied if I have good working,
user friendly pages without a drop of js. A NOSCRIPT telling the user they
need javascript is the same as admitting you don't know what the hell you're
doing.

I won't overdo it either in the similarity, if a border/margin/linebreak is
different in several browsers, I don't really care as long as they're small.
What I do care about is the way the site feels. Color, style etc. A company
that takes itself seriously has somewhat of a house-style (what's the word
here? I don't think this bas tranlation from dutch is what I mean..), that
also will have to be incorporated in the website.

In this particular case, lower-greek or bullets or 2 very different things.
Maybe not from a coding standpoint, but certainly for design and the feel of
a site.

> Seems to me that if the sponsor of the site insists on close adherence
> to their prescribed visual display, no matter what the consequences,
> then the web designer had roughly three options:
>
> * sell themselves cheap, do what the sponsor demands no matter how
> silly it may be, take the money and run. I think those people are
> typically called web monkeys.
>
> * sell themselves dear, try to educate the sponsor into the nature of
> the web, and reach a compromise between what will best meet the
> sponsor's needs in web terms, and what the sponsor misguidedly says
> they want.
>
> http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/not_paper/ may be
> useful, particularly its analogy with the mistakes of early TV as
> "radio with pictures". Here we have "the web as printed brochures".
> In both cases the mistake is failing to capitalise on the strengths of
> the new medium, and cripple it by insisting that it mimic something
> which it never aimed to be.
>
> * When a sponsor insists on their concept despite your advice,
> walk away.

I'd think I'll fall into the second category. I'll do my best, but I won't
sacrifice validity/semantics/functionality for it.

> It's no secret that I'm an academic, and don't have to deal with this
> on an everyday basis. But I've got enough contacts in the commercial
> world who say that those who charge for their expertise, and walk away
> from projects that won't take their advice, are by no means short of
> work, whereas web monkeys who do their sponsor's every bidding are
> working their fingers to the bone and getting paid peanuts.

I think the causality is somewhat reversed here. People who actually know
what they are doing and are good at it, will not take on projects that won't
work, will work badly or are evil... The 'monkeys' as you call them are
usually not as good in what they do, and so will have less serious, genuine
projects. And they'll also have to pay rent, zo they'll jump through more
hoops just to get some assignments.

Grtz,
--
Rik Wasmus

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