Posted by Tony Marston on 08/07/06 11:35

"Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u6SdnTyY7ogHikvZnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Tony Marston wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:Vt2dnWqwNJ0IMUnZnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>>>Gertjan Klein wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Tony Marston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The ability to have 3 different functions called readfile(),
>>>>>>readFile() and ReadFile() causes problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The ability to have 3 different variables called box, Box and BOX
>>>>>>causes problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Or am I the only person who can see this?
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep, you're the only person to see it, Tony. The rest of us are more
>>>>>intelligent than that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Please don't speak for me (or qualify "the rest of us", next time). He
>>>>is not the only one, and your disparaging comments don't make you look
>>>>all that intelligent. Although I'm not as persistent in this thread as
>>>>you and some others, I still largely agree with Tony that what he
>>>>describes above causes more problems than it solves. Neither you nor I
>>>>have any idea what the silent lurkers think.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Gertjan,
>>>
>>>Fine. I really don't care what you think about me. My self esteem does
>>>not depend on it. And I call stoopid asses like I see them.
>>>
>>>I am completely tired of this one who keeps starting this argument. He
>>>does it every three or four months - check the archives. And every time
>>>he twists people's words, ignores valid counter arguments and doesn't
>>>come up with any facts of his own. Just a stoopid troll.
>>
>>
>> Every time someone creates a post about case sensitve languages I reserve
>> the right to answer that post. The fact that my opiion differs rom yours
>> is no reason to insult me at every opportunity.
>>
>
> And every time you make a complete ass of yourself I reserve the right to
> call you on it.
>
> And I'm not insulting you. I'm calling a spade a spade. You have not
> come up with any argument other than "I don't like it" or complete
> bullshit such as "most programmers...".

I have said several times that the ability to create different functions and
variables with the *same spelling* but *different case* leads to obfuscated
and unmaintainable code, and should therefore be avoided. I am not the only
one with this opinion - check out item 21 on
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/unmainnaming.html

>>
>>>I wouldn't say that about Tony if he came up with some valid arguments,
>>>examples and had an intelligent conversation about it. But he doesn't.
>>
>>
>> I have already documented my arguments, but you are too stupid to see
>> them.
>>
>
> You have documented nothing. You have stated your opinion and tried to
> claim it is the same as "most programmers" or other such nonsense.
>
> You have yet to come up with a single credible argument.

See my previous comment.

>>>>>BOX is a defined constant
>>>>>Box is a class name
>>>>>box is a variable name - an object of type Box
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Tony specifically described three *variables* called box, Box, and BOX.
>>>>Not a constant, classname, and variable.
>>
>>
>> That's the whole point. They are three variables with the same spelling
>> but dfferent case. Achange in case does not make one a constant, one a
>> variable and one a function. At least not in PHPP, and this *is* a PHP
>> newsgroup.
>>
>>
>>>A perfect example of him twisting the meaning of other people's words, or
>>>ignoring them completely.
>>
>
> Yes, you are the expert at that. I NEVER claimed I would use all three as
> variables. Yet you have completely ignored that.

But you have said repeatedy that you would use the same word (i.e. the same
spelling) but different case to mean different things

>> You keep twisting my words but coming up with stupid arguments of your
>> own.
>>
>
> No, I don't need to twist your words, Tony. You do a great job of it
> yourself.
>
>>
>>>As has been described many, many times in this thread. All three are
>>>used in different contexts. But Tony tries to make them all one context.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Using the same name, with different case, for related things, as you
>>>>described above, is a sensible convention to do things -- in languages
>>>>that can't distinguish these things in another way, and that are case
>>>>sensitive. It does not mean that making a language case sensitive is a
>>>>good thing in itself.

It is a *convention* among certain programmers and not a *requirement* of
the language.

>>>But Tony thinks a Class is the same as a CONSTANT is the same as a
>>>variable. He just can't understand they are different things.
>>
>>
>> I did not say that. In a lot of languages (like PHP) it is possible to
>> create a constant, a variable, a function, a class, a class method and a
>> class property ALL WITH THE SAME NAME. How is this possible? Because each
>> one is declared and referenced differently by the use of SYMBOLS not
>> CASE. Thus I can create different things called 'foo' and reference each
>> individual one without the possbility of error, as in:
>>
>> foo - constant
>> $foo - variable
>> foo() - function
>> class foo {...}
>> $object = new foo
>> $object->foo() - class method
>> $object>foo - class property
>>
>> This demonstrates that I DO NOT need to use different case to ell the
>> difference between thedifferent objects.
>>
>
> No but now tell me - what is
>
> "foo"
>
> Is it a constant? a variable? a class name?

In PHP it can be any of those things. Each is defined in a different manner,
and each is referenced in a different manner. There is no confusion between
foo the constant, $foo the variable, foo() the function and $object->foo()
the class method.. PHP does not use different case to tell the difference,
and neither do most other languages. It may be a *convention* amongst
certain groups of programmers, but it is not a language *requirement*.

> With case sensitivity, I know IMMEDIATELY
>
>
> FOO is a constant
> Foo is a class
> foo is a variable
>
> I don't need to search through the code to figure out what it is. In
> fact, I don't even NEED to see the code.

In PHP the use of case in such a way is not necessary. FOO is a constant,
$FOO isa variable and FOO() is a function. PHP uses symbols to tell the
difference, not case.

>>>>I personally (slightly, not religiously) would prefer it if a language
>>>>had other means to distinguish between classes, constants, variables,
>>>>etc.,
>>
>>
>> You mean just like PHP already does? Without the use of case?
>>
>
> PHP does it just fine with case.

But it is not obligatory. With PHP (and most other languages) I can use
whatever case I like and the language will not complain for the smple reason
that it does not care. There are no *language rules* about how to use case,
only *programer conventions*.

>>>rather than having to rely on programmers adhering to such
>>>
>>>>conventions (I've seen too many that don't). This is a personal
>>>>preference, to which I'm entitled, as you are to yours, obviously.
>>>>Trying to make such a preference into a universal truth (as both you and
>>>>Tony try to do) does not make a lot of sense to me.
>>>>
>>>>Gertjan.
>>>
>>>Yes, you're entitled to your preferences. The difference is you're not
>>>trying to force the rest of the world to follow your preferences.
>>
>>
>> Neither am I. All I am saying is that I do not like people who use case
>> sensitive languages trying to force case sensitivity into ALL languages.
>>
>
> Not at all. I am not trying to force case sensitivity into COBOL or
> FORTRAN, for instance. Unlike you, who are trying to force case
> insensitivity into already-case-sensitive languages such as PHP.

Gotcha! Both PHP 4 and PHP 5 are case INsensitive when it comes to function
names and method names. If I try to define another function or method with
the same spelling but different case PHP will object. If I try to reference
a function or variable with the correct spelling but different case then PHP
will ignore the difference in case and refer to the *single* method or
function which has that *spelling*, regardless of any dfferences in *case*.

>>>As for a language which has other means to distinguish between classes,
>>>constants, variable, etc. - PHP has some of that. The '$' is used to
>>>indicate variables. Personally i don't like it.
>>
>>
>> Personally I *LOVE* it. It means that I don't have to rely on different
>> case totell the difference.
>>
>
> So you would rather be forced to use an artificial construct to identify a
> variable? It figures. Why not get your beloved COBOL to implement this
> "feechur"?

I am not advocating any changes in COBOL. I a advocating against the
introduction of more case sensitivity into PHP jst to be "consistent" with
other people's conventions.

> And you wouldn't like C, C++ or Java. But I guess those languages would
> be too hard for you to understand anyway, so it doesn't matter.
>
>>
>>>In the projects I work on (both paid and open source), standards are set.
>>>Programmers will follow those standards, or they will not be part of the
>>>project.
>>>
>>>I once had a highly paid programmer on a project who thought he was "too
>>>good" for the project's standards. He was asked to follow them, then
>>>warned by his manager. Unfortunately, he had to learn the hard way.
>>>Interestingly enough, the project went better after he was let go then
>>>while he was around.
>>
>>
>> Some standards just aren't worth following. They are not examples of "the
>> best there is" but "the best that we can do". I've quit jobs rather than
>> work with their primitive standards. More than once.
>>
>
> And you wouldn't last on any of the projects I've been on - or those of
> any other professional project manager I know. You also wouldn't last
> long with any of the companies I've consulted for.

I see. All they require are sycophantic "yes" men who never have an
original idea, who follow what other people say without question. That's my
idea of hell.

--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org

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