Posted by Ben C on 10/26/06 16:36

On 2006-10-26, John Dunlop <usenet+2004@john.dunlop.name> wrote:
> Ben C:
>
>> [John Dunlop:]
>>
>> > Who is to say what counts as 'rendered as expected'? Expected by who?
>>
>> W3C.
>
> The W3C neither holds expectations about nor dictates how an HTML
> document, even with an associated author stylesheet, should be
> rendered.
>
>> > If someone takes it upon themselves to prescribe and proscribe
>> > different renderings, who granted them the authority to do so?
>>
>> They do that for HTML,
>
> The W3C do not prescribe and proscribe different renderings for HTML.

I was a bit unclear there. I just meant they take it upon themselves to
make standards.

And inasmuch as they have "authority" to do that for HTML, they also
have it for CSS.

[snip]
>> Yes, but there are W3C standards for rendering as well.
>
> Not so much standards, in so far as the W3C isn't a standards body, as
> specifications; but yes, I am aware of the CSS recommendations.
>
> However, stylesheets can be stripped out, turned off, unsupported in
> whole or in part, overriden, or even have no bearing on a particular
> user-agent (or medium). CSS2.1 defines CSS2.1; it doesn't define how a
> document will be rendered.

But it does define things about how it will be rendered (or laid out, or
formatted, or whatever you want to call it).

You can safely say, for example, that a conforming UA will not place
right floats to the left of left floats (in the same block formatting
context). If that isn't an expectation about how a document will be
rendered, then I don't know what is.

> No "standard", W3C-endorsed or otherwise,
> defines how documents *will* be rendered.
>
>> You're right though that if you publish HTML with no styles, you should
>> have few or no expectations about rendering.
>
> Well, CSS2.1 offers a default stylesheet for HTML4.01 (Appendix D), so
> you could make reasonable guesses about how a document would be
> rendered if the only stylesheet applied was a user-agent one *and* you
> were familiar with the user-agent and medium in question.

Good point.

> But even with an author stylesheet covering the gamut of HTML
> elements, I would hold no expectations about rendering.

You would be justified in holding some, and I think most people probably
do.

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