Posted by Ed Mullen on 02/02/07 03:07

dorayme wrote:
> In article <HrCdnTZwR7eIA1_YnZ2dnUVZ_sGqnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Ed Mullen <ed@edmullen.net> wrote:
>
>> dorayme wrote:
>>> In article <g%uwh.1898$fS2.53@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>,
>>> "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The best workaround is to put the numbers into the item contents and to
>>>> use
>>>> <ul> without bullets.
>>> Indeed, it looks a reasonable solution.
>>>
>>>> (<ul> is illogical,...
>>> Whether it is quite illogical or not depends on the details of
>>> how to interpret the notion of ol and ul. How to interpret the
>>> use of it in any particular context. I say it is not a simple
>>> matter.
> ....
>
>
>>> I will stop babbling now, but I don't think your suggestion is so
>>> clearly illogical. We would need to know more about the context
>>> in which the OP is using it.
>
>> Fascinating, and hardly babbling. Frankly, I've never understood the
>> concepts of HTML "ordered" and "unordered" lists. Who the heck thought
>> that up? I think the presumptions you cited are silly, although the
>> logic is impeccable considering the standard.
>>
>
> Not quite understanding you re the presumptions?

Your presumptions make sense. I disagree with the standard that makes
the presumptions logical. Meaning, if it's called an "ordered list,"
sure, it's logical to presume that the order is important. And
vice-versa. I just think the idea of an unordered list is kinda silly.
I can't think of any meaningful communication (even a grocery store
list) that shouldn't be in some useful order. Doesn't need to be
numbered but the meat should be grouped together, the dairy, the frozen
food, the soft drinks, cleaning supplies, etc. Otherwise I'm either
constantly walking back and forth across the store or I'm constantly
stopping to read through the list to figure out: "Hmm. Do I need to go
up this aisle? And how many things do I need in this aisle?" And, yes,
I DO order my shopping list. ;-)

>
>> I prefer to think of them as "numbered" and "un-numbered." In business
>> communications, certainly, part of the success of a presentation is the
>> content and part is the appearance. Order is important whether the list
>> is numbered or not. I most definitely DO care how each point flows into
>> the next regardless of annotation style. I prefer bullets rather than
>> numbers as a presentation style in most cases (and most business
>> presentations are done that way), unless there is a need later in a
>> document to refer upwards as in: "Referring to number 6 above ..."
>>
>
> Part of the idea of the distinction in the html is not to do with
> style, imagine css turned off or even better, no list markers to
> show. There would then, in the clearest and best uses of either,
> be a distinction being conveyed about order (see my previous
> examples of extremes, the algorithm versus the shopping list
> under simple and realistic assumptions)

My turn to not be sure. A list of numbered items is, to me, no more or
less ordered than a list with (or without) bullets. I read left to
right, top to bottom. I assume the writer meant to put the items in the
order in which they appear. Numbers or bullets are, to me, a nicety of
visual style. Although, a numbered list does visually convey a more
rigidly disciplined approach.

>> And, BTW, I've just added "dorayme" to my SeaMonkey dictionary as the
>> spell checker keeps suggesting that I change it to "deodorant." I just
>> couldn't stand the indignity anymore. I will say that one of the other
>> options in the list was "adorable." That's not bad! ;-)
>
> Blush! I have occasionally wondered about befriending a sea
> monkey (as a last resort, if all else were to fail). Now I know
> it will not rebuff me straight away...

Always a nice notion, to have a fallback position! :-)

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
I just got a physical and asked the doctor, "How do I stand?" He said,
"That's what puzzles me!"

[Back to original message]