Posted by shimmyshack on 03/30/07 21:10

On Mar 30, 7:41 pm, "Ben" <nos...@thankyou.com> wrote:
> "shimmyshack" <matt.fa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175275132.374121.229580@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 5:43 pm, "Ben" <nos...@thankyou.com> wrote:
> >> General question for the group. I have a friend who claims that PHP/Java
> >> grids can't touch .NET with respect to dev time, reliability and speed.
> >> I'm
> >> not in a position to debate but would like to know the thoughts given the
> >> following requirements:
>
> >> - Grid will handle 1,000 row, 25 columns record sets on a regular basis
>
> >> - Multiple users hitting same data set so automatic refreshes will need
> >> to
> >> occur frequently, 10 second intervals for example, and a clean/fast
> >> repaint
> >> is key.
>
> >> - Maybe of less significance but drag n drop is required.
>
> >> Don't want to debate the requirements themselves, they are what they are.
> >> But if you had to choose PHP/Java vs .NET (ASP/VB) to develop said grid,
> >> which is "better" and why? The back end DB for both scenarios will be
> >> either SQL, MySQL or Oracle, client choice and don't want to debate
> >> offering
> >> a choice of the DB solutions either please.
>
> >> TYIA for any thoughts.
>
> >> =B
>
> > What you are /really/ asking is whether php can provide fast access to
> > the database. The rest of it, the grid (html table markup) repainting
> > (rendering) drag and drop (javascript) mtuliple users (server) doesn't
> > have much to do with php.
> > But you should know IIRC php offloads its maths and various other
> > things onto native C libraries, so I can't see that .NET will have any
> > improvement whatsoever it the speed of execution. (.NET surely
> > compiles to byte code which is then executed in M$'s runtime env)
> > As to the rest, the only thing which you have control over are the
> > server and javascript, chances are the opensource libraries for drag
> > drop and other functionality will be WAY better than anything M$ can
> > possibly offer. It, as a company has a woeful record of client jscript
> > - even the postback was broken for ages!) it is slow to respond to
> > obvious advances, whereas opencourse can be tweaked and improved daily
> > and frequently is, so you can pair your library right down and if all
> > you need is drag and drop you can optimise it for that.
> > As for server setup, I guess you are talking php on IIS, so fast_cgi
> > benchmarks are what you want, I read somewhere that this compares very
> > well.
> > But this will always come down to opinion, he has never used a well
> > setup Linux version probably, and doesnt understand the underlying
> > technologies well enough to be the judge of any of this. He is just
> > religious about .NET because he knows he can "drag and drop" forms and
> > so on, and "ajaxify" his code with a few clicks, great - his focus is
> > on speedy coding so he can spend his big bucks on a new gadget, and
> > let someone else worry about matters of security and professionalism,
> > and tight code. Not my persaonl idea of what a professional programmer
> > should be.
>
> This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. My *current*
> ignorance prevents a rebuttal based on experience so I just listen. He
> actually said, "Well in ten years no one knows if PHP and Java will still be
> around but we know M$ will be there." and. "Look at the added development
> cost of PHP/Java, I could knock this grid out in two hours with M$ and spent
> a day with this and have nothing." Problem is he's got influence and I
> totally disagree with the direction....so...plan is to build a working
> proto-type in PHP/Java/MySQL. So I need to get busy, lack of experience
> doesn't scare me and I can always fall back on groups.
>
> As previously posted I'm a noob to web apps but do have 17 years experience
> coding, from PAL, Clipper/Xbase and VFP with some mapping sprinkled in for
> good measure. My primary VFP app is basically a html string generator from
> very diverse data sources ranging from Unix/Ingress, DbaseIII to SQL. VFP
> is the data engine and parses data and writes strings at supersonic speeds.
> So for a "no interaction" web pages generator it was smokin. All output is
> to *tight* html files (generated by optimized code not report writer) strung
> together to create a web-report archive and (dont laugh) all from funcs I
> developed that are fast fast fast.....but the day has come for a true
> interactive web app which requires me to go outside my little box and dive
> in. I like PHP, the PHP community, have followed for years but no time to
> jump in....and from a business perspective, M$ has no cost benefit that I
> can see. Maybe faster dev of half-assed apps but when you look at total
> cost....no brainer I think.
>
> Anyway, thanks again.
>
> =B

--pre-emptive apology for off topic rant.

my personal feeling about all this: someone sat down and thought "hey
I want money for all this damn programming... hmm marketing
works...look how big my company is getting, no need for standards when
you have dominance." now that's changing, the world is waking up,
China has gone with Open Office, standards are making a come back, M$
is forced to try it's hand at standards, and launches Office Open XML
(instead of going with Open Document Format.) M$ loses huge market
share towards FF and Thunderbird. Allegedly only with enormous
pressure and expense of an individual's career and health did they
survive the Massachusetts decision. M$ heads are now thinking how can
a big company with so many people get it so wrong. Big companies get
top heavy and become victims of their own success and sheer weight. It
is not at all certain that a company like Microsoft will be around in
it's current form in 10years, what is more certain is that they will
change to be more reasonable. All companies _have_ to obey the market
trends, if enough enlightened developers and decision makers choose
superior products, M$ will be forced to change. That's the way I work,
the individual can change the world, if s/he isn't too greedy, and
doesn't think of number 1 the whole time.

So install yourself XAMPP for windoze/Linux from the great people of
http://www.apachefriends.de
Then hop on over to see some examples of http://jquery.com/ in action.
There are many others, and you can get a great grid which can plug
into /any/ architecture for free. I use http://www.apache.org/ because
I love it's flexibility, and it's API means there is always the chance
to hack it at will. Look at http://modsecurity.org/ and the cool rules
project - a great example of the Apache API in action, a fully
featured application firewall coded into a dll for Apache. So how do
you protect that application you bought that runs on your IIS server -
you don't have the source, but you know it has vulnerabilities - wait
for the chargeable update to come out or just proxy your stuff through
Apache and use mod_security to prevent the I/O that the costly closed
source app is vulnerable to. (if the code is closed, you can swep any
old thing under the carpet - sssh - don't tell 'em, we'll get v2 in
the shops in time for Christmas, and no need to include that
functionality, else what will the market guys use to sell v2, and
don't worry, our programmers are safe from a bad rep, it's not like
anyone can see what a mess the source code is)

Man I should stop right now, I get passionate about collaboration and
competition rather than competition. Whenever the human race has had
to come up with something fast, it does it by cooperation, not by
setting one expert against the other, "oh yes but..." I hear someone
say "where's the money in that - for me?"

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