Posted by Steve on 01/08/08 21:52

"Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:2qOdnc8YBax6JR7anZ2dnUVZ_ryqnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Steve wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>>> experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>>> develop a
>>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience
>>>>> with IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>>
>>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>>> future
>>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>>>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but
>>>> it was
>>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting.
>>>> Your
>>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>>> ability
>>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>>> important...
>>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>>> with
>>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>>> mindset
>>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>>> before
>>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>>>> they
>>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules.
>>> For instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
>>> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
>>> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
>>> experienced guy.
>>>
>>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
>>> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
>>> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
>>> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
>>> things are worth the extra money.
>>
>> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the
>> bids are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out.
>> same with cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social
>> skills and half a brain, you can provide different bidding structures.
>> you either talk your way in (and then deliver), or your ability to
>> negotiate in business terms can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you
>> start with the old axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have
>> two of those at the same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one
>> that will suffer., i.e. a quality product developed in short order will
>> cost a lot. that, ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.
>>
>
> Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
> contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
> qualified companies).
>
> In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
> it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
> two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
> consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
> $350/hr.
>
>
>> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver
>> on consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints.
>> either bid that per hour or per project or however.
>>
>
> Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and on-time
> delivery.
>
>> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if
>> it does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.
>>
>
> It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in the
> past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the best
> quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But I
> learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before I
> learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients who
> were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my bottom
> line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.

jerry, what i'm saying is that you're only looking at the quality factor.
you're leaving out time and cost. you can shop in the quality market...the
op can't. there are far more jobs available than you think where employers
want quality and are willing to sacrifice time-to-market if their aim is
two-fold...the actual product, and creating a loyal employee that is
moldable. you may even be hired because of your familiarity with a business
process (engineering, accounting, etc.) often, especially when prototyping,
you want something out there that works...and you needed it yesturday. in
both of those situations, the bid is terciary.


>>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>>> building a
>>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>>>> to
>>>> your goals.
>>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
>>> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
>>> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
>>> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>>
>> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
>> very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
>> auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
>> fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.
>>
>
> Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.

no, it means one should convey intelligence, listen, and fit in.

>> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than
>> i, quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
>> strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms
>> either. people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any
>> job i want. i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly
>> building up my res. your social skills far outweigh your technical skills
>> every time you get interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.
>>
>> you seem to leave that out.
>>
>
> True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
> you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to show,
> good clients won't give you the time of day.

that's a relative truth and relative false. that may be your experience, but
it isn't mine - as a consultant and an employer. you seem to think there's
only one way to have your nike keep the door open. your technicals have
little to do with selling yourself. and selling has little to do with
showing some information on a piece of paper. if that were all there were to
it, there would be very little need for so many commercials or pr reps and
the like. a products 'worth' would just be plastered on it. hell, one well
known company's foot-in-the-door into a competative nich was by specifically
saying that "they were #2...so they worked harder" (paraphrased). have a
google on that.

everyone walks into an interview advantaged and disadvantaged in some area.
the one who gets the job sells himself well and "overcomes objections" - a
commonly used marketing term.

shit, i even had a friend in college who got a nursing job that required
*specific* experience. he was a lit major.

again, your experience is not mine. my eyes tell me that you're only using
one edge of a triangle to open a door...there are two more. if you haven't
tried them, your revenues - as good as you think they are - are not at their
full earning capacity.

>>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
>>> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But
>>> web development is a little different, and people are more willing to
>>> take a chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the
>>> client isn't out that much.
>>
>> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance
>> our corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of
>> those 3 had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they
>> listened, and they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great
>> things. those turn out to be your most loyal and creative developers on
>> your team.
>>
>
> You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
> completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
> programming experience for mission critical systems.

duh! i was the hiring manager in a corporation (still am) and i have hired 3
people (consultants) in 3 years with NO experience in programming with *any*
language. that is the whole point, jerry! and yes, they worked on my mission
critical applications.

remember shelly? he used to post here? guess for whom he works now? are his
skill sets in line with what i need? i think almost. however, i found him
intelligent, a good listener, and he fits in. sorry, i'm a client and i've
been doing *exactly* what you just said clients don't do. and my company is
a $4B (that's b, as in billion) dollar fortune 50.

> You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform. All
> the difference in the world.

i pay for both. again, it depends on what *i* need. you presuming to think i
only need one thing limits your opportunities to work for me...simply
because you think i'm only after one thing. do you really think your wife
married you because you were attractive? <that's a joke, don't start more
trolling>

>>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
>>> have something to show prospective clients.
>>
>> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
>> customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>>
>
> Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
> scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
> recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better things.

i tell you what gets more people more jobs than that. connections. everyone
of us has them, not all of us use them...or know how to with any kind of
diplomacy. the last $40K i made was simply because my bosses, bosses, boss
remembered i'd consulted. he had a friend from his church that needed some
work done. that's how simple it is. make friends who are willing to vouch
for you. i volunteer for the priciple of volunteering - something needs
doing and few are willing to do it. anything else is a gift with strings
attached as far as i'm concerned. but, as an in-road to employment? utter
waste of time.

> Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a programmer.
> But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into a consulting
> role, outside the corporate environment.

i'm not sure how you see consulting as outside of the corporate environment.

> Many consultants I know started the same way.

but make of a very small percentage of those i come across...as a hiring
manager. as a consultant myself, if someone asks if i can do something or if
something can be done, the answer is always *yes*. unequivically. my
reputation weighs into their reliance on the answer more than my previous
work. and, when it comes down to it, i'd want someone working to sustain
their reputation on my mission critical stuff rather than someone less
committed to the success of the outcome...someone with paper-backing.

there's more than one way to skin a cat...i happen to believe in using many
knives.

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