Posted by SpaceGirl on 12/29/05 16:02

Onideus Mad Hatter wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:40:29 +0000, SpaceGirl
> <nothespacegirlspam@subhuman.net> wrote:

>>> You never did explain. However on my own I found you can right click
>>> on objects in Macromedia and convert them to symbols...quite deficient
>>> compared to SwishMax's interface.
>
> Still haven't touched on that one...are you avoiding it on purpose or
> what?
>

Because I've not used Swish yet, so I cant really comment on it to be
honest.

>>> ...what would you need any real code for? No offense but if you're
>>> writing a butt load of code to create interactive video you're REALLY
>>> doing something wrong. Check out the downloads section on the main
>>> Backwater site...that didn't require any sort of serious code at all.
>
>> Because you are living in client-side land. If you want to do anything
>> with services, or use XML, process user input etc, you cannot do ANY of
>> this without coding. But really, your statement demonstrates a real lack
>> of knowledge about how Flash works beyond animation and perhaps stop();
>> ?? All the really creative sides are as much about good use of AS as
>> design-smarts.
>
> I thought we were talking about interactive video, now suddenly you're
> talking about XML...what the fuck time zone are you in exactly?

Because it's all part of it. at least, we tend to build sites that
aren't static, and rather than building every single video into Flash by
hand we spit out XML from a database that contains info (such as
location) for the video. This is then parsed by Flash and it loads the
correct FLV. It's pretty much the best way I think as if we choose a
different way of distributing video in the future (perhaps Metro?) XML
is universal.

> I mean, interactive video...let's think about this...
> on (rollOver) { yourcontainer.loadMovie("video_number"); }
>
> Woah...boy that's sure some COMPLICATED code, innt? *snicker*

That sort of level is easy, yes. I'm not saying the basics aren't simple
- anyone could use Flash 8's encoder. But anyone could draw a box in 3D
Studio Max that doesn't make them the next John Lassiter (sp?).

>>> Photoshop has a horrible interface...not as bad as say AfterEffects,
>>> but it's right up there.
>
>> It's not brilliant I admit, but then there's nothing that really does
>> what it does quite so well.
>
> Uh...yeah, Paint Shop Pro. Are you even READING my posts or are you
> just skimming through them?

Skimming :)

>>> Actually no and it's less intuitive. Less keyboard shortcuts is
>>> generally a better thing in most cases and why do you need to click on
>>> the image preview portion of the layers box in order to do it? What
>>> does that have to do with SELECTION...you see, less intuitive. In
>>> Paint Shop the function is tied into the SELECTION TOOL, which, you
>>> know MAKES SENSE.
>
>> You can ALSO do it from the select tool honey.
>
> Yeah...with a keyboard command. You're like...slow...or something.

There's no reason to start name calling really is there?

BTW, you can right click on a layer in the layer pal and click "select"
and it'll select it for you - there's nothing in PhotoShop that requires
you to use keyboard shortcuts.

> Here, let me try explaining to you the S..L..O..W way:
>
> Photoshop - select a box area, hold down CTRL, then move your mouse
> slightly and hope to fuck you don't accidentally move the selection
> out of place in the process.

Pretty much sums it up. What professional uses Photoshop with a mouse!?
Really ends the discussion right there ;) Buy yourself a graphics tablet
for gods sake :P

> Paint Shop - select a box area, click once inside of it.

You can do all of that from the select menu - or how about vector masks?
Or perhaps use the alpha channels, or then again a quickmask. The reason
sometimes the functionality is not quite so obvious is because there
is SO much of it. Right there I've listed 4 masking tools, each of which
can be used in combination and each of which have their own specific
functionality, and there's reason for it - each do different tasks that
could not be combined into a single tool Either that or you'd have 8
different masking buttons on the toolbar - which I think would be VERY
confusing.

> o_O
>
> Where the fuck is your head, Kiddo?
>
On top of my pretty neck?

>> It's a choice.
>
> Giving options where you don't need any only causes confusion and
> makes the interface less user friendly and less intuitive. You don't
> need 8 different ways of doing something, you only need ONE WAY, the
> best way. If you're so deficient that you can't figure out what the
> best way is...yeah, you probably shouldn't be designing an interface.

No, you need the best way for that PROJECT. When it comes to masking,
often the quickest way to test a design is to use a vector mask - vector
masks are easy to draw, but not generally good enough for production. So
you'd convert that to a raster mask (alpha channel) when you are happy.
Perhaps then you want to tweak some elements of the mask so you'd switch
to quickmask and paint on the mask with a pen. Generally this is how
professional photographers work.

>> When you become a PhotoShop poweruser
>
> ...a what? A "PhotoShop poweruser"?! What in the fuck is that? Some
> kiddie club of retards? Do you have sekrat decoder rings?
> Poweruser...give me a fuckin break.

Okay, perhaps a little glib. I meant "experienced user".

>> you run full screen with NO TOOLS visible at all. That's how everyone
>> in our studio works. It's so much faster.
>
> Kiddiekins, I bet I'm faster than every person in your studio COMBINED
> and, huh, I have the tools visible.

If you say so. Wanna name a few clients?

>> Scrollwheel zooms the image in PhotoShop. Duh :)
>
> Uh, no it doesn't. Maybe on the Mac is does, but it sure as fuck
> doesn't on the PC...but then what would you be using a Mac
> for...*snicker*...

Fix your mouse driver. Photoshop 6, 7, 8 & 9 all support scrollwheel on
the PC, and 8 & 9 do on the Mac.


>>> I'm not done yet. Paint Shop Pro also comes bundled with Animation
>>> Shop...Photoshop, not even CS2 has anything like that.
>
>> Photoshop comes shipped with ImageReady (since version 6, and we're now
>> on version 9). It's a fully fledged animation/web tool.
>
> Oh, Photoshop FINALLY got an anima-er...wait...wait...no, no it really
> doesn't. I mean, if you want to make an uber simple 3rd rate animated
> GIF okay...but I don't see any frame transitions...no frame
> effects...no text transitions...no text effects...you can only export
> video in Quicktime...um...I think maybe you missed the point,
> Powerluser.

I didn't say it was any good. You just said there wasn't one and that
was somewhat inaccurate as there has been one for about 6 years. It does
some very basic animation things, and it's really designed for chopping
up images for web pages - which it's not actually very good at either.
We tend to stick to PhotoShop. Cant remember the last time I used
ImageReady for anything serious.


>> That's because unlike many other editing programs PhotoShop has
>> non-linear undo.
>
> *whispers* no it doesn't *whispers*
>
> o_O
>
> ...not by default anyway...and boy there's a REAL good reason why.

I think it would confuse the hell out of new Photoshop users if it was
turned on by default. It's incredibly useful though. I dont actually
know if PaintShop does that, maybe it does.

>
>> So if I wanted to undo an effect I did 4 hours ago but
>> NOT change the things I did after that, I can with a few clicks. How
>> else would you do it? You cant use CTRL+Z to magically select an event
>> out of 10000s of events to undo. It cant read your mind just yet :)
>
> There are far easier ways of achieving such results with far less
> effort and far less...mess. You're relying far too much on the
> program to think for you and not enough on your own ability to
> organize what you're doing directly. To me, most of what you're doing
> and most of what you proposed says one thing...uncreative. *shrugs*

That IS the danger, but then clients are hard to predict. Especially the
sorts we have - often we can get RIGHT to the end of a project and they
decide to use a different colour on an album cover. So how do you fix
all the art quickly? Well assuming you saved image states it's easy. I
wish you could save complete histories sometimes, but I guess the files
would be VAST.

>>> Oh and Paint Shop's scripting interface is like LIGHT YEARS easier and
>>> more intuitive than Photoshop's.
>
>> At some things yes. There are a few things I like about it.
>
>>> ...why not? Why can't the interface be improved? Why do you think it
>>> has to be obscure and difficult? You have a pretty backwards line of
>>> thinking if you ask me. Hell, personally I'd like to see em include
>>> undo and redo functions that are tied into your mouse's back and
>>> forward buttons (well I suppose you could configure that yourself via
>>> your mouse's setup...but it'd be nice if it was a prebuilt function).
>
>> Because there would be a 1000 buttons on the UI.
>
> No, no, see that's YOUR idea of an improved interface, Little Miss
> I-Need-6-Different-Ways-To-Select-All-The-Active-Pixels.

There isn't one! I dont like PhotoShops UI particularly (although I do
like PhotoShop CS2 better than the earlier versions, and I much prefer
it on OSX rather than Windows). The best UI? No UI at all. I use
PhotoShop full-screen with no tools at all and a graphics tablet. It's
far faster, and no icons or palettes on the screen to confuse.

> You know what REALLY kills Photoshop though?
>
> This:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_images/_Scraps/PNG_Options.png
>
> Paint Shop has the most powerful PNG optimization controls I've ever
> seen...Photoshop has nothing even remotely like it...I wouldn't expect
> Powerlusers to know anything about image encoding methodology though.

Yeah I wish it had better PNG support. But...

PNG isn't really viable just now on the Internet - end of 2006-2007 when
enough people have either IE7 or Fx.

> Oh hey, Spacey, for fun why don't you post the link to one of your
> studios sites, for fun I'll reap the fucker and then rebuild it at
> half the size...LOL...

Hmm www.garbage.com www.redhotchillipeppers.com www.yell.com
www.bowie.net etc...


>
>>>> Perhaps you used older versions of PS?
>
>>> No, I've got CS2.
>
>> Dont believe you :) You list of things you claimed PhotoShop didn't do
>> proves you cant have had more than a casual glance at PhotoShop, or
>> you're just a beginner :p
>
> I think you're confusing the Mac version with the PC edition, Spacey.

Nope - I use CS2 on Windows XP about 80% of the time, and 20% of the
time on a Apple PowerBook with OSX. I tend to only do video work in
Flash on the Windows machine though as it's much faster.

>>>> PhotoShop has smart objects that can be embedded
>>>> PhotoShop or Illustrator files.
>
>>> ...those aren't selections, Honey.
>
>> But they can contain selections.
>
> Uh...no, they can't actually. o_O

Yes they can. They're just PSD files really. You can save as many alpha
channels was you want inside them.

> What part of the definition of "selection" are you not grasping
> exactly?

Selection is just an alpha channel.

> The closest you can come to saving selections in Photoshop is to save
> the selection as a new image and then to save that image as a PSD
> file...which coincidentally is HUGE in size and much harder to manage.

Because it's a photo-editing program it has to save channels against
something, so yes, alpha channels do have to be saved inside a PSD and
cannot be saved externally. But that's not really a problem. If you are
working with production media size is hardly an issue is it? Some of our
PhotoShop production files can be 200mb+ (raw images inside them).

>> Its useful. Imagine this; you are working on designs for a company web
>> site. You integrate their pretty logo into letter heads, web sites,
>> brochures etc. The company then changes their mind about their logo. Do
>> you really want to have to edit ALL those documents by hand?
>
> Yes...and if the client changes their mind about the logo...guess
> whose gonna pay for it...not only the logo change but updating all the
> letter heads, web sites, brochures, etc...yeah, THE CLIENT.

Of course - but if you have lots of clients you have be be efficient and
it's a huge pain in the arse if you have to go change all those files.
Talk about mind-bendingly dull.

> Uh huh:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/cbmain/
>
> You can talk kid...but I've yet to see you post anything like the
> loader I built for the prototype above.

We have plenty of commercial sites. Take a look at Geffen's artists.

>>> ...of course my skill in image encoding methodology is nothing short
>>> of God like,
>
>> Oh really lol.
>
> Like I said, post the link to one of your sites...I'll reap the fucker
> and rebuild it at half the size...LOL...yer Powerluser program doesn't
> even have proper image encoding options for PNG files fer fuck sake.

With all the xml, php, asp, database, restricted access, logging, search
engine optomisation etc...?

>> Well, that's one way to look at it, but you're aiming pretty low. My
>> freelance clients range from record labels and popular bands for
>> Universal to interactive sites for Yell. Home-bru sites have their
>> market, but not if you're after the kind of clients that are willing to
>> let you play with more cutting edge stuff (and pay for the time it takes
>> to do it).
>
> ...it's sad that you need clients to "play with more cutting edge
> stuff"...tsch, tsch, tsch...sounds to me like you have no love of the
> art...just another "professional" with mediocre skills.

I do love the art - I only do this because I love it, but I have one I
on what the Internet COULD be. Music clients tend to want something that
stands out. This often means playing with things that no many people
have done. That's why we're pushing all the time. Sadly we're not always
as cutting edge as we'd like to be :/

>
>> Lots. You can't do video-alp<snip>
>
> No, no, I think you misunderstood...again. My point was that you were
> trying to make it sound like chroma keying didn't even exist before
> Flash...my point is that it's been around for a LOOOONG time...WAAAAAY
> before Flash was even conceived of. The fact that you're only finding
> a use for it NOW and just with Flash kinda says a lot about yer
> skillz, Kiddo.

It didn't exist in Flash. I know keying has been around forever - but
this is the first time it can be done real-time in something so small to
distribute.

>> Sounds fun :) I'll try post when we're done filming. Not that we've even
>> started yet! :o
>
> You're too slow:
> http://www.backwater-productions.net/_test_platform/cbmain2/
>
> I've run into a couple problems, but I should have em sorted out
> within the next 24/7:

I dont see any video on there? None of the links do anything. Film
something with a video camera and then show me.

We just encoded about 40 MPEGs for a band site as Flash8 FLV, but none
of them contain alpha grrrr. Gimme time :) This is supposed to be a holiday!

> Doing it with SwishMax requires a bit more creativity than using
> Macromedia Flash, but I would never give up the SwishMax UI for it.

Yeah, point and click :)

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
# this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
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