Posted by Andrew DeFaria on 10/25/05 10:21

Ramon wrote:

>> Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort
>> to clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated
>> IDE to fill in the blanks.
>
> I expressed my self very clearly the first time round, some people
> just need a little more explanation and/or persuasion.

Demonstrably false. As has been quoted you said "all programmers" yet
later you clarify that to mean something else. You are not being clear
in your expression if you have to change "all programmers" to something
else. It is a miscommunication on your part, plain and simple.

>>> I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
>>> effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
>>> claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
>>> PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
>>> there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
>>> utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.
>>
>> In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is
>> don't you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this
>> claim...
>
> Well, yes it is, and I have provided evidence, have a browse through
> some earlier posts.

I've been reading the thread. You've offered your opinion. You have not
presented any qualitative data.

>> I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
>> time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.
>
> That statement alone sums up your attitude, and attitudes of people
> like you. Somebodies IDE...

No it sums up reality! Or are you claiming it's somehow not reality that
there would be a learning curve to adjust to some new IDE?

> So why did you learn and are using someone's OS?

That sir is irrelevant! I've already learned somebody's OS (Actually
I've learned quite a few). And, more to the point, I've spent the time
to learn a particular editor which suits me quite well. As such, if you
want to sell your idea, and indeed you are selling your idea of using
yet another tool that I will have to learn, you need to provide
justification. Your justification is that it helps you with some things.
My contentions are 1) it ain't that much of a help and 2) it requires
more effort than I deem worthwhile to learn how to do old things a new
way with very little potential that there will be much gain in
productivity of every day things that I do way more than just complete
function calls. In fact I know that I'll lose lots of functionality that
my current editor provides that this new IDE just will not provide.

> At least if you trying to argue, make a frail attempt to have one, an
> argument that is. The above is just pathetic.

It's reality. Face it instead of run away from it by trying to dismiss
it. People will not change their habits unless they perceive an
advantage in doing so. You've presented your weak case as to why you
think it's beneficial. Are you really that surprised that some may
disagree with your opinion?

>>> They just need to see the light.
>>
>> Sounds religious! Ick!
>
> O.. k.. what are you 12?

Nope. I'm 45. But that's funny because that's exactly what I think when
I talk to religious types. It's the same old bullshit "I know better
than you. You will eventually see the light". As an atheist I say "Yeah
I saw that light a long time ago and perhaps at some time in the future
you'll see the light I'm now seeing". Same is true for IDEs. Same
religious like argument...

>>> Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
>>> individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs
>>> :) A routine.
>>
>> That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right.
>> Or, gentler, that others hold differing opinions.
>
> No it tells me one thing, which I've allways known to be true, people
> are stubborn and are afraid of change.

You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however. Look,
if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps have a
point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But that's not
what I do. I code in many different languages and quite frankly having a
specialized IDE for each language would be way too much of a bother than
be considered any sort of productivity gain to me. IOW it wouldn't bring
me, in particular, any benefit. Is that really so difficult to
understand? That not everybody thinks like you nor wants to have your
environment? Pure arrogance on your part!

>> I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly
>> complex PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that
>> they use an IDE (I will ask...).
>
> Sure, why don't you ask them what PHP framework they used, what year
> they developed it in?

PHP framework they developed in? Isn't that totally irrelevant? We are
not talking framework rather we are talking IDE. I would pose the
question and I will but their system is under maintenance at the moment.

> How many years it took em?

You want me to ask them that too? Does it really matter? After all it's
just two guys. My guess is they probably did it in way less time than
you and your mob of developers would have taken.... Then again I would
need a sizable application that you have developed in order to compare
the two...

> What would make their life easier?

Who cares? And why do you feel the need to interject on them what you
think they need? If they are happy where there are at why should it
matter to you?

> And then see if a IDE feature fits that description, and I'm sure you
> will find your answer.

You're the salesman not I. They are just coders....

> Comeon man at least Jerry had some semi valid arguments based on the
> real world, you are talking completely out of your ass.

Oh yeah. So Jinzora is not real world. What is the real world for you? I
suppose you think my personal experience (again way longer than your
career) is also not real world experience. Well let me tell you - it is
indeed my real world and I'm living it.

> I'm not even going to start on the personal attacks you made on my
> spelling and grammar.

Sorry your spelling and grammar suck but that's really not something I
can help you with...

> Considering with the internet, global villege etc.

Oh so you think because it's the Internet things like language don't
matter? Communication is communication. Get used to it!

> You would think people can see past these differences.

Why should I have to?

> Like not being able to speak or write flawlessly.

You mean not being able to communicate correctly nor effectively. Ah yes
I know that's an excuse that many people use. Then again it's an excuse
like any other. Tell me, what's wrong with communicating correctly?

> But hey, from the above it is evident you are not worth the chair you
> are sitting on.

I get paid very well thank you. Probably much more than you. I do not
need you to validate me.

> So, I'll refrain from correspondance in your direction,

Oh wonderful. I'll mark my calendar in celebration.

> and I'd like to ask you that you refrain from any in mine.

Sorry bud but I communicate with whoever I want to. You can ask all you
want. You'll just be disappointed.

> And let my argument with Jerry continue without your petty bullshit.

Sorry you think it's petty. Guess you're gonna have to live with that...
--
Young at heart. Slightly older in other places.

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