Posted by Donald McDaniel on 05/05/06 23:24

On Thu, 4 May 2006 23:19:00 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-609F1F.23190004052006@news.west.cox.net>):

> In article <0001HW.C07FDBB500490C8BF0488530@news.wildblue.net>,
> Donald McDaniel <orthocross@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>> In the first place, one does not have to "spend $200", since XP
>>>>>> Professional can be purchased for much less.
>>>>>
>>>>> Professional lists for $299; you can get more than a third off?
>>>>> Home edition lists for $199, and the lowest I've seen it for sale
>>>>> has been in the 190s.
>>
>> You are referring to the so-called "FULL RETAIL" distribution of Pro
>> and Home, Michelle, and apparently you are under the impression that
>> these are the ONLY types of licenses Microsoft sells.
>
> Well, yeah, there are discounts available, but not for the general
> public.
Michelle, you are STILL under a false illusion. Microsoft will sell ANY of
its licenses to ANYONE, as long as they put the money on the table.


>
>> This is simply because of your lack of knowledge about Windows XP in
>> general
>
> Lack of knowledge of a product means that I can't google prices?
>
>>> If someone were eligible for any of those discounts, very good for
>>> them. Many of us aren't.
>>
>> How many OS X users are "eligible for those discounts" when they
>> purchase Office:Mac Academic Licenses for its low price as compared
>> with a "full Office:Mac" distribution because few sellers check for
>> proof of eligibility, and they would otherwise be ineligible for the
>> discount?
>
> Microsoft Office is not Microsoft Windows. BTY, Microsoft does not
> require retailers to check for eligibility for the student version of
> Office; that's the reason that retailers don't check. It's the only
> product that the Apple Stores do not check eligibility for; for that
> matter, it is the only software that qualifies for a student discount at
> an Apple Store. (I'm referring to the brick and mortar stores, not the
> online store.)
>
>> But of course, OS X users are NEVER hypocrites, are they.
>
> I know one who is.
>
>> Obviously, neither Mr. Jobs or his sycophants seem to have any
>> concerns about user eligibility for Microsoft products.
>
> Office is "products", plural? The point is that since Gates doesn't
> have that concern, why should Jobs? Or Fry's? Or CompUSA? Or Amazon.com?
>
> But it does appear that people who rush to bash Jobs and his
> "sycophants" don't bother to know the facts before rushing in.
>
>> Why would you suddenly be concerned, Michelle? Maybe because it
>> calls your own so-called "ethics" into question?
>
> My ethics aren't the ones in question.
>
>> I call it a "draw" on ethics.
>
> Call it whatever you want; you have a propensity to do that anyway.
>
>> However, both OSes have relative faults in at least this area, since
>> the OSX edition Retail edition will only install on an Apple with an
>> existing Apple OS on it
>
> That is totally incorrect. One could remove the hard drive, and replace
> it with a brand new, unformatted hard drive, and install any supported
> version of the Mac OS on it.

Doesn't what you just wrote actually mean "One could remove the HD, replace
it with a new, unformatted HD, and install any supported version of the Mac
OS on it, then place the OS X Retail edition in the CD and INSTALL IT?"

In other words, didn't you just write what I wrote, only with DIFFERENT
WORDS?

Why do Mac fanatics like yourself always try to PROVE that OS X and APPLE are
some how "superior" to other platforms? I will tell you why: Because Mr.
Jobs and his propaganda machine have you all hoodwinked royally.

But the generic OEM version of XP will install (and run) on ANY Intel based
computer which has a minimum of 64 Meg of system memory, a HD (any HD) large
enough, and at least a Pentium II 233. Of course, it will run very
sluggishly on any computer which only meets the minimum requirements, so
people seldom install XP on such a thing, unless they are trying to prove a
point to people like you.

I speak about this from MUCH actual experience with XP and Wintel machines.

If you want to waste a few minutes, try Googling "Windows XP installation
requirements".

While you're at it, Google on 'Windows XP Professional "FULL OEM" prices'.
Or enter it as a search term on http://www.pricewatch.com


And MANY Wintel users purchase these versions for as little as $125 (legally
and according to the XP OEM EULA, by the way). They don't need ANYONE'S
permission to do it. Even Mr. Gates'. ANYONE is eligible to use these
products. They don't even have to OWN a Wintel.

By the way, I just got out of Safari, after I did a search on Amazon.com for
generic OEM XP Pro discs. I found various prices for XP Pro, with and
without SP2. Those prices were generally from $98 and up. On the SAME
website, I found XP Pro for as little as $98 (new, in shrinkwrap, with COA
and genuine Microsoft holograms, plus the CD key necessary to install it.)
It is a simple matter to slip-stream these products with SP2, using the Apple
directions they post on their website. You have to copy the install disk to
your HD first, then slip-stream it with SP2, then create a new disk image
from the resulting folder, and burn it to a DVD or CD.

Using Apple's directions, you will have to use Virtual PC/Mac, since to
slip-stream SP2 into a normal XP install disc, you will have to run a Windows
executable (the XP install program itself, with a special flag added to the
end of its command-line (in this case, the flag would be "/x", with the
folder path.) This flag will cause the install program to slip-stream the
SP2 files into the folder containing the copy of the XP install disc,
resulting in a disc image which will be bootable on any Intel-based machine
once it is burnt using a third-party CD utility.

The process of making the install disc is not as simple as I have made it
appear, because you must use a third-party program to burn the image itself.

Or, you could do it directly from a Wintel machine (if you can stomach it,
and you have at least ONE Wintel user as a friend (do you? Of course, I will
always be your friend, but I'm probably more than a few hundred miles away
from you. I could do it for you, if you desired. But you would have to use
your own CD key).

In either case, SOMEONE will HAVE to use third-party software to burn the
image, since neither XP nor OS X will allow anyone to use system software
(such as XP's integrated CD burning capabilities, or OS X's Disk Utility) to
do it.

Don't believe me? Try it yourself. Or, send me a new CD, and I will do it
for you for free. I won't even need your XP CD. I have more than enough XP
install discs in my closet to do it with. In fact, I have at least ONE
official copy of Microsoft Windows from Windows 95 on up in my closet,
gathering dust. There is a retail box containing an Upgrade version of XP
Pro w/SP2 gathering dust underneath the desk containing my Wintel machine,
all of which are also gathering dust.

(NOTE to self: You MUST dust all this crap sometime soon!)


>
> But facts don't mean anything to you, do they?

Evidently, they mean nothing to you, either.
I have told you what I and probably millions of others have done at least
once since XP was released in public beta. Millions have done it since then
many, many times, and I am sure it will be done millions of times again when
SP3 is released.

And it is ALL perfectly legal, and according to the XP Pro EULA. In
addition, it is very "moral" to anyone's sense of morality. As to its
"ethicality", it is perfectly ethical in anyone's ethical system.

If it weren't, do you think Apple would put up directions on how to do it on
their website? I assure you, Microsoft would bitch royally to Mr. Jobs the
minute he saw or heard about it, and Apple's BootCamp site would be removed
from the Net so quickly that the air itself would reverberate in complaint
when the resulting vacuum suddenly collapsed upon itself.

Of course, Mr. Jobs COULD be unethical and immoral (horror of horrors!), but
I am inclined to believe that where such things are concerned, he is as
"ethical and moral" as the Law (the DCMP Act) will allow, like the majority
of commercial software developers in the States.


Anyway, here are a few sites you can get OEM Windows XP Pro or Home very
reasonably (I will try to make sure these sites only sell "genuine Microsoft
products" before I list them.)

Amazon.com:
http://www.Amazon.com This one you will have to dig a little deeply for.
However, if you purchase directly from Amazon itself, you will only be able
to purchase a Retail version, for only a few bucks less than the original
retail prices. You must purchase an OEM from a small seller on Amazon's site
(click on the "new and used" link), though Amazon does guarantee the purchase
itself. I would never purchase this way if the buyer won't guarantee the
product. Also, watch the shipping charges. Some of these sellers will sell
cheaply, but the shipping charges (if not via Amazon) will be outrageous.

NewEgg.com:
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Subcategory.asp?N=50001149+2000350368&Subcat
egory=368&Manufactory=1149

buycheapsoftware.com :
http://www.buycheapsoftware.com/default.asp
NOTE: Their products ship from the West Coast.
As an example, right now, you can purchase a genuine Microsoft XP Pro OEM
install kit for $139+shipping (the shipping is very reasonable, too).

All of the above sites guarantee your purchases, and will allow you to
replace them at no cost to you if they are defective. However, I don't know
of ANY legal distributor of Microsoft products which will allow you to return
a product if it has been activated, so use the 30 day grace period before
activating your license.

All of these products are genuine Microsoft products, legally licensed, with
a CD key printed on a genuine Microsoft COA in the package (some of these
people attach the COA somewhere in the shrink-wrap itself, usually in a
little fold in the shrink-wrap, so don't throw the shrink-wrap away until the
product is properly installed (the CD key will be on the COA itself). By the
way, "COA" means "Certificate of Authenticity". Those words themselves will
be printed on the COA. If they aren't, then the COA is not a genuine
Microsoft COA.

NOTE THAT IT IS ILLEGAL UNDER U.S. LAW TO SELL "OEM COA STICKERS" BY
THEMSELVES, SO DO NOT TAKE THAT ROUTE. THEY MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH THE
CORRECT MEDIA IN THE SHRINK-WRAP. Go to http://www.microsoft.com/piracy to
find out about how to recognize genuine Microsoft COAs.

In addition, one has to purchase a piece of essential hardware to purchase
the software. This can be something like a power cord or mouse. Many
sellers will include the essential hardware piece for free when you make your
purchase.


NOTE: ANYONE may purchase one of these OEM products, since they themselves
will be the required "system builder". Of course, they themselves will have
to provide any user support needed, since Microsoft does not provide tech
support for OEM software (other than a few calls to Microsoft Support for
installation help). After that, you will have to pay Microsoft's current
phone support charges (last time I checked it was $35 per incident) up-front
before they will help you by phone or email.

Or use the Microsoft Public News server, at news://msnews.microsoft.com (no
login or password required to access this server.) There are many
specialized newsgroups for Windows XP on this server. Just enter "windowsxp"
in your all-newsgroups folder search control. There will be entries there as
far back as the first posts about XP while it was in public beta , and on up
to this very minute. NOTE that there will be hundreds of thousands of
entries, so I hope you have a good search engine in your Usenet client.

Or, if you like to dawdle while you're reading newsgroups, go to:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/default.mspx

Or, use Google Groups and enter a search term, like "how to slip-stream XP
SP2". Personally, I prefer using Hogwasher in OS X, or Forte's Agent in
XP. (Wow! What a concept! Using OS X to find out how to do a simple thing
like installing XP properly. Will wonders never cease! It IS a "small world,
after all".)

--

Donald L McDaniel
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so that the thread may be kept intact.
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