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Posted by Jerry Stuckle on 07/23/06 01:21
Csaba Gabor wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>
>>Kenneth Downs wrote:
>>
>>>Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Additionally, do you have permission from EBay to use their information
>>>>in this way? All of it is copyrighted, and using it without their
>>>>permission can get you and the developer in a lot of trouble. Of
>>>
>>>Hmmm, I would wonder about the distinction between their HTML pages and the
>>>data points.
>>>
>>>Copying an entire page and displaying it as part of your business would
>>>definitely be a violation. Oh, except for google does that, um, they do it
>>>actually with the entire internet. There have been a few high-profile
>>>cases of people objecting, but by-and-large it seems to go forward.
>>>
>>>Ras is talking about gathering data points that they have made public. I
>>>would bet (of course IANAL) that he is ok until he starts thinking about
>>>going public. Then he will have to acknowledge the source of the data and
>>>obtain some kind of understanding.
>>>
>>
>>But EBay is also a data collection - and that collection is copyrighted,
>>also. You can't make use of the collection without their approval, even
>>if you do just excerpt data and use the data in another way.
>
>
> Copyright applies only to presentation (of data, et. al.) and not to
> data itself. There was a case way back when where Ma Bell sued some
> upstart for trying to make their own yellow pages and the argument was
> that the information was copyrighted. I seem to recollect that the
> decision went against Ma Bell (AT&T) because they could only claim
> copyright on their particular presentation. If the data was presented
> another way (for example, reordered by first name) then there was no
> protection.
>
That's where you're wrong. The data itself can also be copyrighted, as
when it is part of a collection. I suggest you check your sources
again. There have been many claims won because the data itself was used
without permission.
> At the same time, I seem to remember that the case above has been
> superceded or its precedent has been mollified by subsequent cases, but
> I don't remember how.
>
I'd suggest you get a copyright attorney to give you the real facts,
instead of maybe remembering something which may or may not be correct.
> Another case of data vs. presentation is the data points of the
> boundaries between countries, states, counties, etc. A map is
> copyrighted because it is a presentation of the underlying data points.
> However, are those data points public domain? If you look at the
> agreement that you have to sign with the various map companies on the
> internet, they all say that you agree not to republish the underlying
> data points in any form. Thus, it is not a question of copyright, it
> truly is a question of user agreement.
>
Yes, the data points are public domain. And yes, it is a matter of
copyright. If not, they would have no grounds to stand on to require
such an agreement. Someone could easily sue to them to provide the
information.
> I'd be at least somewhat worried in the original poster's place. I
> don't see an issue of his copying pages (by the way, when I say
> copying, I am thinking that what the OP is doing is extracting the
> relevant data from the given pages and saving only that - why waste
> extra bytes? - and plus you need extracted data to be able to work with
> it) - to this point, it's all research. When he starts thinking about
> publishing the data (I presume he's not republishing the pages. If he
> does, he does have copyright issues) in a for sale book, then I think
> it's important to do very careful legal research.
>
And even for personal use it is liable to be a copyright violation. I
would NOT want eBay's attorneys gaffer me.
>
>>The Weather Channel is another data collection. The current temperature
>>is public data - available for free from the National Weather Service.
>>You cannot, for instance, collect hourly temperature readings a city or
>>cities from TWC's site, because the site is copyrighted. The fact it is
>>public and freely available from the NWS website doesn't matter - the
>>collection on TWC's site is copyrighted.
>
>
> Interesting case. The US government's National Weather Service (NOAA)
> at http://www.nws.noaa.gov/disclaimer.php does say that their data is
> free (see the third bullet point).
>
Exactly. It is free from the NWS, because it is a government agency.
As a result, the data is, by definition, public domain.
> However, I don't see where The Weather Channel's data is protected
> after reading over section 3B of
> http://www.weather.com/common/home/legal.html
> In my read of the penultimate sentence, it is saying that you can't do
> anything with anything from their site unless it is allowed by law. So
> the question comes back, what is allowed by law as far as data
> collection/dissemination goes?
>
Check with a copyright attorney. The collection itself, even though of
public data, can and is copyrighted.
>
>>This has been upheld many times in courts around the country.
>>
>>IANAL - but I got a good education on it when I sued a company for
>>taking my courseware for their own use. Their legal department settled
>>quickly - they knew they would lose in court. But in the meantime my
>>attorney provided me with lots of good info.
>
>
> Your case seems like a straight copyright issue to me, too.
>
> Csaba
>
Yes, but in the processing of pursuing with my attorney I got a good
education in copyright law.
--
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
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