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Posted by Jerry Stuckle on 12/01/06 12:52
Tony Marston wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:rNidnZrE3O5fSvPYnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>>Tony Marston wrote:
>
> < snip>
>
>>>>>>Tony and I have been into this before. He breaks into conversations
>>>>>>trying to spout his version of OO, with a few blogs from people no one
>>>>>>every heard of to back him up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I see. So in your opinion Martin Fowler is of of these "people no one
>>>>>ever heard of "? He says, like I do, that "Encapsulation Wasn't Meant To
>>>>>Mean Data Hiding" at http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/2006/02/22/
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you saying that YOU are more of an expert than Martin Fowler? What
>>>>>arrogance!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, I'm saying Booch, Rumbaugh and Jacobson, among others, are more
>>>>expert than Martin Fowler. And yes, I've heard of him.
>>>>
>>>>But you're not quoting Martin Fowler. You're quoting Keith Ray's
>>>>INTERPRETATION if Martin Fowler.
>>>
>>>
>>>If you bothered to follow the link to Martn Fowler's page at
>>>http://martinfowler.com/bliki/GetterEradicator.html you would see in
>>>paragraph 4 tha it is a direct quotation, not an interpretation.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, and did you actually read that page? To quote from Martin Fowler:
>>
>>"For me, the point of encapsulation isn't really about hiding the data,
>>but in hiding design decisions, particularly in areas where those
>>decisions may have to change. The internal data representation is one
>>example of this..."
>
>
> The full quote is "The internal data representation is one example of this,
> ** but not the only one and not always the best one.**" The significant
> point is the sentence which reads "point of encapsulation isn't really about
> hiding the data, but in hiding design decisions". If you follow the link he
> provides to
> http://www.craiglarman.com/articles/The%20Importance%20of%20Being%20Closed%20-%20Larman%20-%20IEEE%20Software.pdf
> by Craig Larman there is an interesting chapter with the title "Information
> hiding is PV, not data encapsulation". The hiding of design decisions was
> supposed to mean hiding the code which manipulates the data, not the data
> itself.
>
> As I have said several times, and quoted from other resources, encapsulation
> is NOT about INFORMATION hiding but about IMPLEMENTATION hiding. There is a
> subtle difference which you fail to grasp.
>
No, the point YOU fail to grasp, which ALL the experts, including Martin
Fowler, is the actual variables used are PART OF THE IMPLEMENTATION.
I never said you should hide the information. But you should hide HOW
THE INFORMATION IS STORED. That is one of the DESIGN DECISIONS he is
talking about.
This is something on which EVERY expert agrees. But you fail to understand.
And the same thing with Craig Larman's article. He agrees that
encapsulation is good because it hides the design details. No one ever
claimed it hid information.
Wrong on both counts, Tony the Troll. Learn to read.
>
>>This is in perfect agreement with Booch, Rumbaugh, Iverson and others. And
>>a direct CONTRADICTION to troll Tony Marston.
>>
>>
>>>>>>It's not worth getting into the argument. He's just a troll with
>>>>>>delusions of competency.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If everyone who disagrees with you is incompetent then the world is full
>>>>>of idiots. Your opinion is not the only opinion, and there are plenty of
>>>>>"experts" who have opposing views.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, I disagree with a lot of competent people. It's YOU who are an
>>>>incompetent troll. And you continue to prove it.
>>>>
>>>>Try these - with direct quotes from recognized experts, and examples:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.research.umbc.edu/~tarr/dp/lectures/OOPrinciples-2pp.pdf
>>>>http://www.nnwj.de/encapsulation.html
>>>>
>>>>Or better yet, read the real books by these authors.
>>>>
>>>>But I know you won't, because you disagree with what they say, and don't
>>>>want to burst your little bubble.
>>>>
>>>>Troll.
>>>
>>>
>>>Whether you like it or not there is no such thing as a single opinion as
>>>to what OOP is and is not, and there are multiple interpretations as to
>>>the real meaning of encapsulation, inheritance, polymorphism,
>>>implementation hiding and information hiding. Just because you quote
>>>sources who agree with you does not mean you are right and everybody else
>>>is wrong. Here are sources with the opinion that "Encapsulation is NOT
>>>information hiding":
>>>
>>>http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/2006/02/22/
>>>http://martinfowler.com/bliki/GetterEradicator.html
>>>http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-05-2001/jw-0518-encapsulation.html?page=1
>>>http://www.itmweb.com/essay550.htm
>>>http://nat.truemesh.com/archives/000498.html
>>>
>>>The world is full of different opinions, so who is to say which ones are
>>>right and which ones are wrong?
>>>
>>
>>Yea, and some, like yours, troll, are just wrong.
>
>
> In your opinion they are wrong, but I do not value your opinion.
>
I really don't give a flying fuck if you or any other troll values my
opinion, Tony. Your idiocy is beyond comprehension.
>
>>Read the experts I've mentioned several times. You might actually learn
>>something.
>>
>>But I know you won't. Like all trolls you know everything and anyone who
>>disagrees with you is wrong - no matter how much of a recognized expert he
>>is.
>
>
> All the "experts" in the world do not agree. "My" experts disagree with
> "your" experts. Just because I, and many others, disagree with your opinion
> does not make me/us wrong.
>
Where did your "experts" get their training? The great Tony Martson
School of Bullshit?
These are experts recognized by the INDUSTRY - not me, not Tony Marston.
They are recognized by top programmers, university professors,
industry groups, publishers and more.
And quite frankly, troll Tony Marston's opinion on who an expert is
isn't important.
>
>>Go and crawl back into your hole, troll. And take your delusions of
>>competence with you.
>
>
> Typical reaction of a moron. When you start losing the argument out come the
> insults.
>
Yep, you've labeled yourself for sure. I am not "losing the argument".
Rather, you are just too thick-headed and stubborn to listen to the
real experts in the field.
You've done a little programming in one (or maybe even two) languages.
You think reading some of the crap on the Internet makes you an expert
in the matter.
Let me clue you in, Tony. You are far from an expert in anything. A
web site with some copied (and incorrect) information does not make you
an expert. Posting your bullshit in this and other newsgroups does not
make you an expert. And quoting people no one ever heard of does not
make you an expert.
Try working on an OO project with > 100 programmers. Learn how to do
proper OO. Then spend another 5-10 years or so working your way up in
the OOAD field, until you're managing projects like the one above. Then
your opinions might count. I've done all of that over the years.
Or even read the books I mentioned by those authors.
But I know you won't. Like all trolls, you're just plain stupid, and
are totally afraid the bullshit you've been espousing might be wrong.
Go away, troll.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
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