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Posted by Ben C on 08/12/07 08:41
On 2007-08-11, Bear Bottoms <bearbottoms1@gmai.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:39:33 -0500, Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
>> On 2007-08-11, Bear Bottoms <bearbottoms1@gmai.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 06:49:57 -0500, Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
[...]
>>> Many people without high level HTML skills are able to put out fairly
>>> good web pages using these tools. If you are an expert, I would
>>> imagine you wouldn't need them.
>>
>> My whole point is that you don't have to be an "expert" not to need
>> these tools.
>>
> Then I must be below beginner.
It sounds like you are an "experienced beginner" who has resourcefully
worked out how to do things using trial and error and insufferably poor
free and "lite" versions of crappy commercial tools.
I have some sympathy because I started that way myself. In my case it
was C programming. When I stumbled on the K&R book I couldn't believe
how clear it was-- I never expected someone to actually just write down
how everything worked and how simple and logical it actually all was. I
had come to expect documentation to be patronizing, to consist mostly
marketing, and that "beginners" should expect to be able to achieve very
little.
But that's just what they want you to think. The truth is these things
are not difficult when they're explained properly.
>>>> In order to write HTML pages it is better to understand some of the
>>>> basics of text editing, of HTML, and of authoring for the web.
>>>
>>> I do understand the basics. I make most of my modifications in the
>>> code, as sometimes the editors leave a lot of trash in the code when
>>> you cut and paste.
>>
>> Why do you use an editor that leaves "trash" around when you cut and
>> paste??
>>
> It's free?
You see that's _not_ the real basics. That's the fake basics that people
who sell or give you these tools want you to believe. The line they're
selling is "this is hard, you will never get it on your own, but we're
here to help you with a miracle tool that makes it easier". But it isn't
that hard and the tool certainly doesn't make it easier.
This is why it's so important to bash things like the "CSE HTML
Validator".
[...]
>> I see, so you start with an even worse tool and then clean up the trash
>> it produced with CSE Validator. I suppose life is too simple for you.
>> You must be quite an expert to be able to produce anything at all with
>> such an approach.
>>
> I'm no expert at all at web based composition. I have a useful enough page
> out there though.
All credit to you for that, but the fact that you achieved the result a
particular way doesn't mean it was the only or best way to get there.
Be reasonable: if a relative novice says I got to where I am from
complete beginner along this path and it worked for me, then that might
be helpful advice; but if a relative expert who has got a lot further
says in fact you might be better off taking a different route, then
that's likely to be helpful advice too, and not necessarily mere
snootiness.
>>> It certainly isn't a nefarious attempt at anything. If your skills
>>> are at the level where you don't need their help, swell...
>>
>> Where did you get the idea that it requires _less skill_ to use editors
>> that insert trash and the CSE Validator? This is a serious question.
>
> Well, I only have basic knowledge of HTML
What's to know about HTML? You put tags around things, there are certain
tags to choose from, the standard tells you roughly what they mean and
what can nest inside what. You type them in and check it with a
(real) validator.
> less of CSS, none on PHP, very little on java, etc etc.
Knowing how to achieve a particular layout with CSS is harder, but there
are some good tutorials which you will find links to in the archives of
alt.html and comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets (I think I got
that name right).
I don't know anything about PHP myself. Sun have some good documentation
and tutorials about Java on their own website. But Java isn't used so
widely used on web pages anyway, JavaScript (a completely different
language) is probably more important to know.
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