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Posted by Kevin on 11/13/07 16:07
On Nov 12, 10:13 am, 1001 Webs <1001w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:07 pm, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 11, 3:15 pm, Travis Newbury <TravisNewb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 11, 7:56 am, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I think that part of the problem is so many people out there claim to
> > > > be web designers and developers which indicates an advanced level of
> > > > expertise in coding which they do not possess.
>
> > > No the problem is many web developers can not see there are more than
> > > one way to skin a cat.
>
> > Well I don't know about any of you in here but I have to say it was my
> > opinion that the term "webmaster" by definition implied no specific
> > level of knowledge. The term Web Developer however implies a large
> > programing skill set. The term web designer was used to refer to the
> > people that would create the IMAGE of the web site on paper or
> > electronic file and turn it over to the web developer to make into a
> > functioning website.
>
> I think you are a bit confused here.
> As is often misunderstood by the layperson, a Web Developer does not
> always create graphics, logos, or identity, or create written, video,
> or audio content for a website, however some do.
> Web Designers, Web Copy Editors and Web Content Creators are different
> from Web Developers.
>
> A web developer is a software developer or software engineer who is
> specifically engaged in the development of World Wide Web
> applications, or distributed network applications that are run over
> the HTTP protocol from a web server to a web browser.
>
> Although many web developers are also skilled in web design,
> information architecture, usability engineering, web content
> management systems, web server administration, and search engine
> optimization, many of them are not, and the final result are superbly
> coded sites that are horribly looking, never show up in search engines
> and lack any real-world useful functionality.
>
> > Therefore I think web developers being of the programming nature
> > probably know far more ways to as you put it skin a cat then any non
> > programing personnel. IMHO There are far more graphic artists out
> > there claiming to be web designers and web developers then there are
> > the other way around. You can go get a college degree in graphic arts
> > without even taking a programming course at all.
>
> Fine argument.
> And you can go get a college degree in programming without even taking
> a graphic arts course at all.
>
> > Maybe we should be more like they are in Texas with the term Engineer.
> > There in order to advertise your self as any type of engineer you must
> > possess an engineering degree. Similarly, if you want to promote
> > yourself as a web developer you should have a degree that has a heavy
> > web programming curriculum. Another point if you want to promote
> > yourself as a designer you should be proficient in the minimum skills
> > (HTML, XHTML, CSS, JavaScript) to design dynamic web pages without the
> > use of WYSIWYG editors. You should also be able to write any of these
> > following the International STANDARDS.
>
> Neither XHTML nor JavaScript are required to design websites nowadays.
> The International Standards, specially when it comes to CSS
> implementation across different browsers, are anything but Standards.
>
> And by that same argument, if you want to promote yourself as a web
> designer, you should have an extensive Graphic Design background
>
> > I know that for some people learning CSS may be difficult but it is
> > far superior then HTML 4.01 when it comes to managing larger groups of
> > web pages. People resist change in general but when you think about it
> > CSS has been out for 11 years now. That is more then enough time to
> > learn it if you were willing to send any time at all trying to learn
> > it. It is now a part of the international standards and we should be
> > prepared for customers to require compliance with those standards on
> > our web projects now and in the future.
>
> CSS has been out for 11 years now, but real implementation of CSS in
> web design, hasn't caught on until recent years, due to its horrendous
> implementation.
>
> > Anyone who cannot write compliant code should not be advertising
> > themselves as web designers or developers. They just do not have the
> > skills to do the job on a professional level.
>
> Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
> basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
> themselves as web designers, ever.
> They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
> level.
>
> > Graphics artists that disagree should stick to doing what they do best
> > creating logos, images, fliers, catalogs, etc.. for print on paper,
> > and vinyl and other physical media. Web work requires the knowledge of
> > web languages both markup and programming. It is hard enough to try to
> > make a living building web pages and having to compete with foreign
> > programmers willing to bid out web design work at 5 dollars an hour.
>
> A Web page consists of information for which the Web site is developed
> and in that sense, a website might be compared to a book, where each
> page of the book is a web page.
>
> There are many basic design concerns such as:
> * The content: The substance, and information on the site should
> be relevant to the site and should target the area of the public that
> the website is concerned with.
> * The usability: The site should be user-friendly, with the
> interface and navigation simple and reliable.
> * The appearance: The graphics and text should include a single
> style that flows throughout, to show consistency. The style should be
> professional, appealing and relevant.
> * The visibility: The site must also be easy to find via most, if
> not all, major search engines and advertisement media.
>
> Many web developers who call themselves also web designers fail to
> acknowledge these basic design aspects.
> The result is that pages created by web designers rank usually higher
> than pages created by web developers who lack understanding and
> training in the field of Graphic Design.
Here is a definition for you of Web design. I am sure even you will
agree that graphic artists in general are not trained in the languages
and technologies needed to do the web design job especially when it
comes to Dynamic pages as defined below. (By the way the definition is
from wikipedia)
Web design is a process of conceptualization, planning, modeling, and
execution of electronic media content delivery via Internet in the
form of Markup language suitable for interpretation by Web browser and
display as Graphical user interface (GUI).
The intent of web design is to create a web site -- a collection of
electronic files that reside on a web server/servers and present
content and interactive features/interfaces to the end user in form of
Web pages once requested. Such elements as text, bit-mapped images
(GIFs, JPEGs, PNGs), forms can be placed on the page using HTML/XHTML/
XML tags. Displaying more complex media (vector graphics, animations,
videos, sounds) requires plug-ins such as Flash, QuickTime, Java run-
time environment, etc. Plug-ins are also embedded into web page by
using HTML/XHTML tags.
Improvements in browsers' compliance with W3C standards prompted a
widespread acceptance and usage of XHTML/XML in conjunction with
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to position and manipulate web page
elements and objects. Latest standards and proposals aim at leading to
browsers' ability to deliver a wide variety of media and accessibility
options to the client possibly without employing plug-ins.
Typically web pages are classified as static or dynamic.
Static pages don't change content and layout with every request unless
a human (web master/programmer) manually updates the page.
Dynamic pages adapt their content and/or appearance depending on end-
user's input/interaction or changes in the computing environment
(user, time, database modifications, etc.) Content can be changed on
the client side (end-user's computer) by using client-side scripting
languages (JavaScript, JScript, Actionscript, etc.) to alter DOM
elements (DHTML). Dynamic content is often compiled on the server
utilizing server-side scripting languages (Perl, PHP, ASP, JSP,
ColdFusion, etc.). Both approaches are usually used in complex
applications.
With growing specialization within communication design and
information technology fields, there is a strong tendency to draw a
clear line between web design and web development.
Now it was stated earlier in this post that
"Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
themselves as web designers, ever.
They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
level."
It is also true that you can get a bachelor of Science Degree in
Graphic Design and not even have a class in HTML or CSS for that
matter. With that being said Graphic Artists should never advertise
themselves as web designers as they just do not have the skills to do
the job on a professional level.
Graphic Artists in general are not trained to work with the web markup
languages, scripting language, programming languages, frameworks or
even styles.
In reality you touched on it a bit earlier when you said Developers
can write a page that is code perfect but looks ugly. In reality a
graphic artist might be able to create a pretty picture of a web
layout but be totally clueless on how to properly code it to be a
functional website. A web designer indicates a level of coding skills
not required of a graphic artist. For a web designer the appearance
of a site to others does not matter. What one person perceives as ugly
might be exactly what the customer is asking for. It may in fact go
against multiple graphic arts rules or concepts such as the rule of
thirds for example.
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