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Posted by Jerry Stuckle on 01/08/08 17:53
Steve wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:MOednTchgqpVHR7anZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good luck. You'll need to walk before you can run. No one (in their
>>>> right mind, anyway) is going to hire a company with no proven
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>>> So that's what I'm asking. Like in addition to those languages used for
>>>>> web/database development, what languages would I need to learn to
>>>>> develop a
>>>>> database like the one my employer has?
>>>> Any of these will work. But you'll need experience. I've been
>>>> consulting since 1990. But before that I had 13 years of experience with
>>>> IBM to show. Even then, the first few jobs were hard. With no
>>>> experience, you're not going to get much for jobs. And certainly not
>>>> something like you're talking, which is critical to their business.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to scare you off. I just don't want you to have
>>>> unrealistic hopes.
>>> Thanks for your expertise and opinions.
>>>
>>> I realize that I have to crawl before I walk. I have a vision for my
>>> future
>>> and my motivation and vision is what is going to carry me to my goals.
>>> Honestly, not to overlook your credentials and years of expertise, but it
>>> was
>>> your choice to spend 13 years with IBM before you began consulting. Your
>>> companies success has to do with your team, vision, connections, and
>>> ability
>>> to sell your services. The first and the latter would be the most
>>> important...
>>> team and sales. I've known web/database developers that started off
>>> consulting with smaller to mid range companies and evolved to working
>>> with
>>> larger companies within 5-7 years. And I personally don't like the
>>> mindset
>>> that you have to spend 10-13 years of your life working for someone
>>> before
>>> you can branch out and establish your own company. That mindset is what
>>> they
>>> teach you in college and it sucks.
>> That could be true. But in the consulting business, experience rules. For
>> instance, all else being the same, would you rather take your car to
>> someone with 10 years of experience, or someone who studied auto manuals
>> in his spare time and just opened a shop? I suspect it would be the
>> experienced guy.
>>
>> Now, what if the experienced guy charged $75/hr. and the new guy $50/hr?
>> You might be tempted to try the new guy. But what if your vehicle is
>> critical to your work - and your job depends on it? Would you still be
>> willing to take a chance on the new guy? Probably less likely. Some
>> things are worth the extra money.
>
> that may make sense, jerry...if it worked that way. generally, if the bids
> are all within close proximity, the lower priced bidder wins out. same with
> cars even then. here's the kicker...if you have good social skills and half
> a brain, you can provide different bidding structures. you either talk your
> way in (and then deliver), or your ability to negotiate in business terms
> can outweigh the bid itself. to do that, you start with the old
> axiom...time, expense, and quality - you can only have two of those at the
> same time and the one you don't pick...that's the one that will suffer.,
> i.e. a quality product developed in short order will cost a lot. that,
> ultimately, dictates hiring decisions.
>
Not at all. Lowest price only works when you're doing government
contracts, where agencies are mandated to take the lowest bid (from
qualified companies).
In the real world, price is not as important as ability. And you called
it right there - time, expense and quality. When companies have to pick
two, expense loses out (except for the cheapskates). Otherwise, big
consulting firms wouldn't be able to farm out recent college grads at
$350/hr.
> the key is understanding which of those two combinations you can deliver on
> consistently and then going after the jobs under those constraints. either
> bid that per hour or per project or however.
>
Yep, and clients want to see a proven track record of quality and
on-time delivery.
> theory is great. the car analogy just doesn't work in the real world. if it
> does in yours, you've been missing a lot of opportunity needlessly.
>
It's perfectly accurate in the real world. I've won some contracts in
the past not because I had the lowest price - but I could give them the
best quality. Sure, I've lost some because I wasn't the cheapest. But
I learned very early in the consulting game not to bid on price. Before
I learned that, I found I was spending a lot more time on those clients
who were only interested in price than I should have been - lowering my
bottom line. Once I stopped competing on price, my income increased.
>>> It is definitely possible for me to do the same immediately after
>>> building a
>>> foundation in Computer Science. It's all about how quickly you apply it
>>> to
>>> your goals.
>> That's a lofty goal, and I'm not at all trying to throw water on it. But
>> you have to also realize you have competition out there - a lot of it.
>> And they have something you don't have - experience and a proven track
>> record. It counts even more in consulting than auto repair.
>
> people are hired if they seem intelligent, listen, and fit in. yours is a
> very traditional view. i'd contend that it counts LESS in consulting than
> auto repair since a car has known parts and well defined systems that are
> fixed in a straightforward fashion. programming is rarely if ever, that.
>
Which means it's even more important to have that proven track record.
> think of it this way...if i have to fight an attacker who is bigger than i,
> quicker, and even prettier, i'm not going to win by trying to beat his
> strengths. less experienced people should not compete on even terms either.
> people are people and not computers. i can talk my way into any job i want.
> i choose those that will be able to deliver on...slowly building up my res.
> your social skills far outweigh your technical skills every time you get
> interviewed...and, at every stage of your career.
>
> you seem to leave that out.
>
True and false. You have to have the social skills, I do admit. But
you've got to get in the door first. And without any experience to
show, good clients won't give you the time of day.
>> Now, that's not saying you can't get started. For instance, I know some
>> web developers who basically got a start with little experience. But web
>> development is a little different, and people are more willing to take a
>> chance. Most sites are not very expensive to build, and the client isn't
>> out that much.
>
> i have hired at least 3 people in as many years to maintain and enhance our
> corporate systems. they are mission critical applications. none of those 3
> had *any* programming experience. they were intelligent, they listened, and
> they fit in. they also had a huge desire to do great things. those turn out
> to be your most loyal and creative developers on your team.
>
You're talking a corporate environment, not consulting. The two are
completely different worlds. Clients will not hire consultants with no
programming experience for mission critical systems.
You are paying someone to learn. They are paying someone to perform.
All the difference in the world.
>> But even then it's hard to get started. You can start with some
>> non-profit organizations, for instance, and build a portfolio. Now you
>> have something to show prospective clients.
>
> that's a complete waste of time! bollocks. build a portfolio with paying
> customers...unless you just *want* to give your time away.
>
Not at all. That's how I got started many years ago - while I was
scratching out customers, I did volunteer work. It got me glowing
recommendations which I was able to carry on to bigger and better things.
Sure, the work at IBM helped - it showed I had experience as a
programmer. But the volunteer work showed I could carry that over into
a consulting role, outside the corporate environment.
Many consultants I know started the same way.
>> However, this has gotten way off topic for c.l.p. I recommend you get
>> some suggestions from alt.computer.consultants.moderated. Not a very
>> active group, but several experienced consultants monitor it.
>
> that seems the most sound advice given yet.
>
>
>
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================
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