|
|
Posted by Andrew DeFaria on 10/25/05 05:51
Oli Filth wrote:
> Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:
>
>> Oli Filth wrote:
>>
>>> Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:
>>>
>>>> Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
>>>> time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
>>>> routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
>>>> function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when
>>>> you notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't
>>>> have access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed?
>>>
>>> I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
>>> languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
>>> compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...
>>
>> Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
>> dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
>> languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.
>
> I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC
> without "specialist" tools. That only applies for script-based
> languages, and therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear
> originally, I admit!
Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a system
and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you locked into MS
VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE application!
Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It
seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!
On the contrary in the, ahem, old way of doing things you simply use a
plain text editor to edit a file or a makefile, rebuild the app and your
on your way! Even from a telnet session from across the world. No need
for an IDE. No dependence on the IDE. Job completed! Even in C or some
other 3rd generation language (speaking of old school).
You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And auto
completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files into this
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environment" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!
>>> My point was along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's
>>> there to make your life easier?".
>>
>> The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
>> losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
>> calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because
>> there's a modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can
>> nor should give up understanding of what's going on under the hood
>> and get your hands dirty every now and then.
>
> I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example.
> By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
> knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
> you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
> knowing *how* to construct a program.
I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself. In fact,
often you can't do it at all. And I believe they also dumb down the
concept of knowing how to program too, just like they do for calculators
and math...
> In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
> (FrontPage excepted).
I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...
> Anyway, even intelligent professional mathematicians wouldn't forego a
> calculator if they were asked to calculate something like
> 123.4528*log(3.573). They'd use the calculator because it makes their
> life easier and gets the job done; that doesn't imply that they don't
> understand multiplication or logarithms.
Yes, but they understand the concept behind the math involved. And, if
push came to shove, they could calculate that without the calculator...
Navigation:
[Reply to this message]
|