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Posted by Andrew DeFaria on 11/13/01 11:30
Oli Filth wrote:
>> You have a strange way of looking at the phrase "built in".
>
> Personally, I wouldn't say it's a massive stretch of that phrase.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here...
>> I'm curious, as I don't use monolithic IDEs such as Visual Studio,
>> how exactly do you suck out their concept of a project into a say a
>> makefile such that you can build the whole application or system via
>> a simple command or script.
>
> Certainly, older versions did. With VS .NET, I'm not sure.
Kinda my point...
>>> I beg to disagree that an IDE "tells me what to do" - certainly it
>>> assists me in doing certain things, or does certain tedious
>>> house-keeping for me, but that's the whole point of a tool.
>>
>> It is demonstrably telling you what to do! It is telling you what the
>> function you are typing in is when it assists you with the function
>> prototype. Now you are indeed free to ignore it's suggestion but it
>> is obviously telling you what it thinks you are doing at this point.
>
> Well, not really. It gives you a list of possible matches given the
> current context, which it narrows down as you type. As soon as its
> guess is equal to your intention, you press Tab. Alternatively, the
> parameter info pop-up just reminds you of the order and types of
> function parameters, and allows you to view overload options. It's
> hardly telling you to do something that you wouldn't have done if left
> to your own devices!
>
> Certainly no more than a search engine is telling you where to go when
> it returns its search results.
I think you make a good point here. About the only thing I can say is
that with the IDE it popped into your face therefore more suggestive -
especially to those who don't know what they are doing...
> Well, VS (my IDE of choice for C/C++/C# as you've probably gathered)
> can do pretty much all of those things (save the multiple language
> things). Can't speak for all IDEs, though.
Maybe. Let's review. How much disk and memory space does VS take? How
much does it cost?
>> Really? So I can go into MS VS at work and then poke through the
>> firewall to edit machines on my Linux box at home through DSL or some
>> random box in England? Somehow I don't think I could...
>
> If it's FTP access, you probably can. I dunno about SSH.
OK. Let's test it. From the IDE edit the file
ftp://defaria.com/testfile.txt. It's available via anonymous ftp.
>> (Actually I did do some VB stuff - VB script stuff - but used XEmacs
>> to do it. MS VS VB is all oriented to creating Windows GUI programs,
>> but the task at hand was not to produce a GUI program rather a
>> script. BTW MS VS took up some 500 - 1 gig of my hard drive! What a
>> waste to write a 100 line VB script!
>
> Should've used the VBScript in Excel!
[Smacks head!] Of course! Why didn't I think to use a spreadsheet
calculator program to create a batch script! :-)
>>>> Those English dude are so funny. I'm curious, is it actually
>>>> pronounced "ass" like us yanks or is it pronounced "are esss"?
>>>
>>> Mostly like your phonetic representation. Although many people here
>>> have been "corrupted" by the influx of American culture via TV and
>>> films, and assume that "ass" is the way forward...
>>
>> That it is... That it is... I will never get used to things like
>> colour and cheques.
>
> Ditto for color and checks, and "Z"s where "S"s should be! At the risk
> of starting a transatlantic divide, remember which came first!!
Meaning that your version is old school and not further refined since it
was created? ;-)
(What? I like transatlantic divides! ;-) )
>> For a giggle you should read: Plan for Improvement of English
>> Spelling
>> <https://defaria.com/Jokes/Plan4ImprovementOfEnglishSpelling.php>
>
> Beautiful...
Glad you liked it.
>>> Whilst "think before you type" is a virtue I attempt to adhere to,
>>> doesn't *always* work in practice.
>>
>> Well I've had the same problem and still do on occasion. But I
>> actively worked on it. Another concept I employ (usually) is the
>> silly and stupid concept of checking what I typed *before* I hit the
>> send button. I'll do it here to.
>
> ^
> ^
> I think this may be irony epitomised!!
Not quite sure what you are stating here. Could it be your spelling of
epitomised? ;-)
>> After I'm done typing in what I wanted to say I go back and read it
>> all. I change those mistakes of "your" but meant "you're", etc. Some
>> times I add stuff. Sometimes I reword stuff. Sometime I check it
>> again. I find it useful.
>
> For extended posts like this, I usually spend a long time making sure
> that my arguments make as much sense as possible - but sometimes I
> forget that what makes sense in my head doesn't always make sense in a
> NG.
It follows therefore that checking non-extended posts should be, well,
just even easier!
>> There are many of us who do and we really don't appreciate it when
>> your choice of IDE and your method of building does not easily fit
>> into an automated way of building large quantities of software which
>> is how it usually, eventually needs to happen in any large organization.
>
> I entirely empathise with that. Would it be fair to say, though, that
> it could be equally argued the other way - that programmers might not
> like being forced to use a particular set of tools (or rather,
> prohibited from using certain tools) to make the build engineer's job
> easier?
You got a point. As in many things in life, a proper balance needs to be
struck and the pros and cons of both need to be investigated and judged
on their merit.
> An analogy could be: if you were a user of Thunderbird, but your
> organisation forced you to use Outlook for e-mail because it makes
> their admin easier, would you not be annoyed?
Funny you should mention that. I am a TB user. Most of my clients use
Outlook and Exchange. Would I be annoyed - you betcha. But I simply plug
into IMAP and everything is fine.
But unlike code and building my usage of email is largely read oriented
in that I read my email. I respond too and in that sense I write to it.
However neither of these usages breaks everybody else.
Email is simply text that conforms to a standard. Mine conforms to the
standard so everybody's happy.
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