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Posted by Matthew Weier O'Phinney on 05/10/05 03:57
* Mary-Anne Nayler <naylm@si1.dod.gov.au> :
> Nested tables are the absolute worst thing you can do!
I agree -- which, if you read my post, you'll see I didn't advocate
nested tables -- just a single table for columnar layout of the page.
Within each column, items are floated or positioned using CSS.
> A screen reader is able to tab to a table and tab within a table but
> once you begin to have tables within tables, UGH!
I use text-based browsers regularly, and, while tables can be rendered
fine in many of them, nested tables get very ugly, very fast --
especially if the terminal you use is limited to 80 characters.
> To quote accessibility guru Joe Clark; "With nested tables, a screen
> reader user ends up working from within a maze formed by one table
> within another". All you coders out there know how hard it is to code
> nested tables and how confusing it gets right? Imagine trying to
> reverse engineer this jumbled mess with nothing but audio to go on!
Absolutely. This is the argument I use when trying to convince others to
use a standards-compliant design. But often the customer (or your boss)
will ditch this kind of accessibility for some simple cross-platform
cross-browser consistency (not realizing that the cosmetic tweaks used
to do this mean that even though the site looks good on a Mac, a Windows
machine, and some linux browsers, it reads like a complete foreign
language in audio browsers or text-based browsers).
In the end, on a practical level, I often am not *allowed* to make a
tableless design due to the wishes of my boss or client. And,
unfortunately, I have to pay the bills so my family and I have a place
to live and food to eat, so I can't simply refuse a job based on
principle. That's pretty much all I was getting at in my first post.
> Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote, On 10/05/05 01:59 AM:
> > * Mikey <frak@totalise.co.uk> :
> > > I have just come back from the client visit and one of the issues
> > > that arose was over the use of accessible markup, more
> > > specifically the use of tables versus the use of layers.
> > >
> > > Now, my long held belief was that div/layers were added to the
> > > spec so that designers could separate presentation markup from
> > > content - that is, use positioned layers for laying out content,
> > > use tables for tables of data as they were originally intended.
> > > However, my client seemed adamant that it was the other way around
> > > and that the use of tables was preferred owing to browser
> > > compatibility issues.
> > >
> > > Now, I have just had a look around w3 and have found some
> > > inferences that support my view but nothing that states clearly in
> > > either direction. Does anyone on this list have a definitive
> > > answer for this one?
> >
> > You have it correct, theoretically, regarding accessibility. Tables
> > should be used for tabular data, divs for presentation and layout.
> >
> > However, many people confuse accessibility with consistency; they
> > want a look-and-feel that works the same no matter what the browser.
> > (Why they feel this is accessibility is anybody's guess, but I've
> > seen it a number of times). In this latter arena, on a practical
> > level, tables are typically your best bet.
> >
> > I've done a lot of tableless and table-based layouts, and the
> > unfortunate fact of the matter is it's a lot easier to create a
> > layout that is consistent cross-browser and cross-platform using
> > tables. Until IE supports the CSS2 'display: table-*' elements
> > (which is the easiest way of creating columns of the same height),
> > this will continue to be the case.
> >
> > Now, this does not mean you should create a bunch of nested tables
> > for the layout. I find that a simple skeleton made of a table with a
> > few columns can create the basic page layout, and then I use as much
> > CSS as I can within (unordered lists for navigation menus, floats to
> > position image/caption pairs, etc.). This combines some of the best
> > of both worlds, and creates a fairly accessible page at the same
> > time.
> >
> > As in all things, it's a matter of balance.
--
Matthew Weier O'Phinney | WEBSITES:
Webmaster and IT Specialist | http://www.garden.org
National Gardening Association | http://www.kidsgardening.com
802-863-5251 x156 | http://nationalgardenmonth.org
mailto:matthew@garden.org | http://vermontbotanical.org
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